User talk:Eighty5cacao/misc/Aspie notes/version 2

Overly logical
Sometimes, an Aspie's speech may appear "overly logical" because he's used to hanging with other possible Aspies who have a habit of nitpicking everything he says or writes. Case in point: occasionally on Slashdot, I phrase things specifically to avoid comments from the grammar national socialists and other pedants in the peanut gallery. Or did I misunderstand the point you're trying to make? --Tepples 07:07, 2 March 2011 (MST)
 * Close enough. I already mentioned that Aspies tend to communicate better with other Aspies than neurotypicals. Some of the "nitpicking" may come from the "technically oriented environments" regardless of AS prevalence, though. ("Technically oriented..." corresponds to the "location X" from the long version.)
 * Something that is not yet on the page but will be: In the long version, I mentioned that some aspects of Aspie behavior are called kuudere in otaku-speak. Examine the numbered list of four items there; here's how each corresponds to typical descriptions of AS:


 * 1) I mentioned that neurotypicals generally interpret "not speaking" more negatively than do Aspies. (Need to mention something about maintenance of "relationship bank accounts")
 * 2) I mentioned that Aspies often produce offputting nonverbal cues without being fully aware.
 * 3) Aspies often have trouble expressing respect, humility, etc. in a manner understandable to neurotypicals. I still need to write more on this point.
 * 4) "Overly logical" speech patterns can involve speaking in a more formal register than necessary, using unnecessary technical jargon, and/or failing to respond in kind to the emotions of others.
 * Roughly speaking, Aspies tend to have plenty of "substance" in terms of intelligence and kind-heartedness (-dere), but they lack the "style" needed to present themselves in the best light (kuu-). Eighty5cacao 10:02, 2 March 2011 (MST) (last edit 18:56, 2 March 2011 (MST))
 * TV Tropes is deprecating the use of anime fanspeak to name tropes. The trope in question is now located at Sugar and Ice Personality. Accordingly, I will make no further attempts to work kuudere or any other otaku slang into the essay. I actually came to this decision quite a while ago. (continues below - split by Eighty5cacao 23:46, 22 October 2011 (MST))

HEXACO
Instead, I plan to examine more serious theories of personality description. HEXACO is looking interesting so far.

But I digress. Back to your original point: I think I answered it adequately when I said "Aspies tend to communicate better with other Aspies than neurotypicals." I admit this doesn't quite fit into the HEXACO framework, though. I feel like adding another factor for quality of first impressions. Eighty5cacao 13:39, 9 October 2011 (MST)

As I have used the terms here, Law vs. Chaos corresponds roughly to the C and O of HEXACO, while Good vs. Evil corresponds to the H. Of course, the correspondence isn't exact; "deceitful" (part of negative H) correlates positively with Chaos as well as Evil. Eighty5cacao 17:40, 13 October 2011 (MST) (last edit 23:46, 22 October 2011 (MST))

Note to self: Temple Grandin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FDivECOpqA

Main points: 1) Most Aspies are visual learners in that they brain-dump raw sensory data straight to memory, while neurotypicals tend to think more using language; 2) tradeoff between "social" and "intellectual" brain circuits.

This page will probably be moved soon, since it is not so much "in a nutshell" as a complete rewrite. Eighty5cacao 19:49, 12 April 2011 (MST)

No objection
...to [//pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=User:Eighty5cacao/misc/Aspie_notes/in_a_nutshell&diff=3548&oldid=3543 this edit]; thank you. I really need to stop having kneejerk OWNership reactions - I was about to remind you to discuss on talk in the future, but I realized that would be a waste of time in most cases. My previous comments about sloppiness still apply, but then again so does BRD. Eighty5cacao 11:35, 2 June 2011 (MST)

Dance
In gymnastics at the Olympic Games or ice skating at the Olympic Winter Games, judges watch the equivalent of a "freestyle" and assign scores like 9.5, 9.8, ... So there's no fundamental conflict between freestyling and playing for score, except that current automatic grading systems only know how to judge step timing, not the sort of thing that gymnastics judges look at. I guess Xbox 360 is in theory the best platform for that, at least once recognition software improves. --Tepples 07:13, 5 January 2012 (MST)
 * I would appreciate some clarification as to how this comment is actionable (in the context of this essay), given that I plan never to purchase any ≥seventh-generation consoles.
 * The "conflict" in my head focused on freestyle routines that appear knowingly to miss steps. In general, my mind disfavors any music game not based purely on timing. Though, the technical details of scoring in a game like Just Dance are a little more than I can figure out on my own...
 * I don't have a problem with my parents calling me dorky (actually, my use of the word "dorky" is a translation convention); I'm simply stating that it has happened. Eighty5cacao 09:20, 5 January 2012 (MST) (last edit 09:05, 6 January 2012 (MST))
 * Google "DDR is not dancing". When NTs hear "dancing", they think of the kind of dancing seen on televised ballroom dancing competition. The contestants are playing for the judges' points, but the points are awarded for things other than the timing of steps and their position on a predefined grid. If music games were to start judging on criteria that more closely reflect those of real-world competitive dancing, you'd have to move in a less "dorky" manner to score points. --Tepples 10:11, 5 January 2012 (MST)

More specifically, I look dorky because 1) my mouth hangs partly open and 2) my arms look rigid because I don't know what to do with them. I used to try putting my arms up in Caramelldansen position, but that got too tiring and didn't stop the questioning from my parents. Eighty5cacao 21:42, 20 January 2012 (MST) (last edit 23:19, 1 May 2012 (MST))

Nunchi, tatemae, and honne
As you can probably tell from the links in my edits this month on here and on TV Tropes, I've been bingeing on Cracked. According to The 10 Coolest Foreign Words The English Language Needs, what Aspies lack is nunchi, which is Korean for knowing what is wrong to say in a situation. The Japanese concepts of tatemae and honne might be useful as well. --Tepples 15:25, 20 January 2012 (MST)
 * Acknowledged, but I have no plan of action yet. Eighty5cacao 16:21, 20 January 2012 (MST)
 * Scratch work: "Aspies have difficulty putting forth tatemae that differs significantly from [their] honne..." (TODO: needs to express that it's a problem both of recognition and of execution) Actually, esprit d'escalier might be relevant too: many Aspies have difficulty "thinking quickly enough" to respond appropriately in social situations, because something else is consuming too much mental CPU time. Eighty5cacao 21:54, 20 January 2012 (MST) (last edit 14:41, 22 January 2012 (MST))
 * This discussion raises an interesting question: What is the prevalence of AS in Japan compared to the English-speaking world? What are the social implications? Eighty5cacao 14:41, 22 January 2012 (MST)

I meant to say earlier that honne sounds like a false cognate for English honest ... but I'm just perpetuating Aspie bad habits by saying such things. For the record, Honne and tatemae currently exists. Eighty5cacao 00:12, 28 January 2012 (MST)
 * Continuing scratch work: "Aspies tend to think that a few minor tweaks are sufficient to turn honne into tatemae, while in many real situations the effort required is far from minor." Eighty5cacao 12:23, 28 January 2012 (MST) (last edit 23:43, 18 March 2012 (MST))
 * More scratch work: "Aspies exist to prevent the separation between society's honne and tatemae from growing unchecked in the wrong direction." See LiveScience article about extroverts exaggerating on personality tests. Eighty5cacao 23:17, 30 April 2012 (MST)
 * I just discovered that "honest"/honne is listed on False cognate. --Tepples 11:33, 1 May 2012 (MST)
 * You were the one who listed it, IIRC? Also, I admit that my recent choice of extlink misleadingly conflated the autism spectrum with introversion - but this was mainly a problem of sloppy wording. Eighty5cacao 17:33, 1 May 2012 (MST)

TODO: Mention that some people are trying to convince me that business success (survival?) depends overwhelmingly on tatemae. --Eighty5cacao 22:25, 30 November 2012 (MST)

No fashion sense
This is just a note to myself; no reply is expected or needed.

Mention something about User:Tepples/no fashion sense, but where? I agree only to the extent that I prefer soft fabrics. Eighty5cacao 08:35, 12 April 2012 (MST) (last edit 23:19, 30 April 2012 (MST))

Sensory defensiveness cont'd
Wherever I mentioned that I agree with User:Tepples/no fashion sense "only to the extent that I prefer soft clothing," specify that this means 100% cotton; I'm ok with ordinary T-shirts (technically an abuse of the term) provided that they are. (Keep looking. Did this get lost in the split of the TODO page to Random thoughts?)

This can probably go on the page soon: I often push (pull?) up my sleeves while playing DDR, only to reluctantly let them fall back down in situations where the weather isn't warm enough. --Eighty5cacao 22:08, 26 November 2012 (MST)

People skills-ism
This was inspired by Talk:Lesbian, but it's not entirely in the scope of that article. The section's title means "discrimination against people who do not consistently show good people skills." I have read the Cracked article, though not in perfect detail.

In society, first impressions count. Social skills are key to our evolutionary success, after all.

As a result, not everyone is equally able (regardless of willingness) to do a job intensive in people skills. Introverts and Aspies are subtly discriminated against today. Males could be discriminated against in the future.

All in all, people forget that what someone else lacks in style, s/he likely makes up for it with intellectual substance. See, for example, this BBC News article and Susan Cain's book Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. Eighty5cacao 23:34, 13 April 2012 (MST) (last edit 00:43, 14 May 2012 (MST))
 * There is a more commonly recognized word for a superset of this issue: mentalism. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Scratch work: The Magibon test
Moved from User:Eighty5cacao/misc/WMG dump/archive

I believe most Aspies appreciate the point of Magibon's videos better than most neurotypicals do. Neurotypicals instinctively jump on the deviance &mdash; most comments are along the lines of "WTF? See a psychologist and a dentist, then let's talk." In contrast, Aspies are more tolerant of Magibon-like behavior because they engage in it themselves; they understand in their own twisted way that silence really is golden.

TODO: Continue exploring this idea of "Magibon-hostile" vs. "Magibon-tolerant" personalities, and explain specifically to what extent it correlates with AS. Eighty5cacao 23:13, 30 April 2012 (MST)
 * One YouTube user commented on #34 that Magibon is wasting people's time that could have been spent watching other videos with more intellectually useful content. Figure out whether this counts as a "neurotypical" comment... --Eighty5cacao (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC) (+ 20:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC), maint. 04:45, 1 February 2016 (UTC))

This idea probably belongs in the "Eye contact" section, with a wording like "Of course, there is also such a thing as too much eye contact. Many Aspies think 'eye contact' means staring at people[, like Magibon] ..." --Eighty5cacao (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Trendy
According to Christina H of Cracked, it's become trendy to be an Ass Burger. --Tepples 18:03, 27 July 2012 (MST)
 * At the risk of sounding defensive, I can assure you that I'm not the average lamer who speciously claims "Asperger syndrome" as an excuse for bad Internet behavior. I've been functioning just well enough that I've never had to see a paid psychologist, but my use of the "Aspie" label involves extensive discussion with my parents and consultation of printed references. Eighty5cacao 23:18, 27 July 2012 (MST)
 * Thanks for clarifying. Mostly I was asking whether anything about the difference between Internet attention-harlot "Aspies" and real Aspies could be included in the essay. --Tepples 10:43, 28 July 2012 (MST)
 * This essay is only intended to cover "real Aspies." I could put a warning in a hatnote, though. Eighty5cacao 12:24, 29 July 2012 (MST)

Scratch work: Facebook nonuse viewed with suspicion
[//nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/08/07/social-misfits-are-not-on-facebook/ Are you a potentially dangerous social misfit (aka not on Facebook)? - Sophos Naked Security]

TODO: explain better; consider other venues Eighty5cacao 14:42, 10 August 2012 (MST)
 * Something I discovered recently: To verify a Facebook account, you need a cell phone that can send and receive text messages. A land line doesn't work. --Tepples 20:39, 24 August 2012 (MST)
 * I suppose I should also mention something about cheap cell-phone plans that charge extra for all text messaging in either direction. Eighty5cacao 22:44, 27 August 2012 (MST)

Aspies and Polis
Search this page for "missing both" for dungs and giggles. --Tepples 18:48, 23 August 2012 (MST) (link maintenance: Eighty5cacao (talk) 14:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC))

Blink
In Blink, Malcolm Gladwell uses the wording "temporary autism" to refer to the effect of time pressure on judgment. Figure out where to work this in... Eighty5cacao 22:38, 29 August 2012 (MST)

Scratch work: Difficulties with behavioral security
Might behavioral-security measures such as those already implemented by Israeli airports and being implemented by the TSA cause people with certain psychological disorders to be mistakenly detained and/or miss their flights on some occasions? I don't just mean Asperger syndrome; this also includes social-anxiety disorders.

The problem is that such people are more likely to get nervous and thus have trouble speaking coherently; also, the imperfections in their eye contact make them look less trustworthy. Eighty5cacao 21:29, 30 August 2012 (MST)
 * See also a non-airport example from the UK. (Just a brain dump, not quite 100% related) --Eighty5cacao (talk) 19:29, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

i.e.
I apologize in advance if some more general (MOS-related) talk page would have been a better venue.

With that said, what was wrong with "i.e." in the comment that you edited [//pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=User:Eighty5cacao/misc/Aspie_notes/version_2&diff=6901&oldid=6896 here]? Did you mean that it could potentially be confused with "e.g."? Eighty5cacao 13:37, 22 September 2012 (MST)
 * Three things: First, the "i.e." vs. "e.g." issue, as you pointed out. I cringed the first time I heard "I'll be the Marth, e.g. noob, so this is Yoshi's B" in the misinterpreted Brawl theme lyrics. Second, the spelled-out English "that is" and "such as" aren't that much longer than the Latin abbreviations. Finally, "that is" doesn't imply a pun to Windows Internet Explorer. --Tepples (who'll be the Lucas or the Pikachu) 14:25, 22 September 2012 (MST)
 * In my opinion, the i.e. vs. e.g. issue is made moot by the fact that it is a comment (therefore I can be as sloppy as I want, within reason). As for the pun, I don't see why that would disqualify anything. How strongly would you object if I reverted your change to the comment?
 * As for text visible to readers, though, I'll try to keep your points in mind. Eighty5cacao 22:50, 24 September 2012 (MST)
 * As for the pun, some puns are fine, but others distract. Otherwise, I don't think I really care enough one way or the other to say much about this. --Tepples 03:45, 25 September 2012 (MST)
 * Sorry for pressing the issue to the point of rudeness. As I implied, the comment is not worth nitpicking about because it isn't visible to most readers. --Eighty5cacao 20:17, 25 September 2012 (MST)

Seanen är din
Posted because I resemble that remark: Seanbaby thinks anyone who appreciates puns must have autism. --Tepples 17:21, 29 September 2012 (MST)
 * I don't quite understand enough Swedish to appreciate any pun that may be in the section title. The main problem is specifically, how does the first word relate to Seanbaby's (nick)name? --Eighty5cacao 21:50, 2 October 2012 (MST)
 * It comes from one of the first animutations. I first became acquainted with Seanbaby's work while "Hatt-baby" was circulating the web. --Tepples 04:29, 3 October 2012 (MST)
 * I had heard of the title "Hatten är din," but before this discussion I misremembered it as being a song by Basshunter. #me suppresses urge to apologize about not doing my research again ... oh, and overapologetism might be a valid topic for this essay --Eighty5cacao 09:23, 3 October 2012 (MST)

Thinking in SMS time
thinking in IM time have something to do with certain subcultures' preference for texting (SMS) rather than talking? --Tepples 06:32, 21 October 2012 (MST)
 * You understood the meaning of the abbreviation "IM" correctly, but this has nothing to do with any particular subculture nor any particular IM/SMS technology. What I meant is that chat messages have a backspace key but face-to-face conversation doesn't. The vicious cycle in this case is that I mistakenly burn bridges with the inadequacies in my manner of speaking, leaving me with fewer opportunities to practice... --Eighty5cacao 13:46, 21 October 2012 (MST)
 * In that case, J.F. Sargent of Cracked shares this "email time" disability of not being able to express meaningful opinions without the option of backspacing and refining. (See #2 of "5 Words That Used to Mean the Exact Opposite"). --Tepples (talk) 02:16, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Hereditary basis for autism spectrum
To clarify [//pineight.com/mw/index.php?title=User_talk:Eighty5cacao/misc/WMG_dump/Umihara_Kawase&diff=7023&oldid=6991 this edit summary elsewhere], the article in question mentioned that the genes suspected of contributing to the autism spectrum are also correlated positively with attention to detail and other traits beneficial to a career in a technical field. (The term the article uses is "(to) systemize." TODO: I will give more specifics later, as well as finishing the thread of neurotypicals filtering out "too much" information...) Eighty5cacao 14:52, 21 October 2012 (MST)
 * Also, the selective pressure on Aspies is neither universally positive nor negative because of assortative mating. --Eighty5cacao 10:18, 29 October 2012 (MST)

Eye contact tests
LiveScience mentions use of D&D monster images in a study of human eye contact (the point being that neurotypicals make contact with the eyes even if they aren't in the usual place on the head) --Eighty5cacao 22:17, 30 October 2012 (MST)

Scratch work: FaceYelp
...would make life really hard for me if it existed (#3). --Eighty5cacao (talk) 12:24, 9 December 2012 (CST)
 * Also from Cracked, but a change of topic: 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person relates tangentially to the "neurotypical businessmen" thread. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 11:37, 17 December 2012 (CST)
 * and an entire Photoplasty of related ideas. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 17:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Be afraid. Be very afraid. FaceYelp is coming, and it's called Peeple. --Tepples (talk) 16:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * DateAha is another attempt at FaceYelp, aiming to "make up for years of bad dates, toxic behavior, and misleading profile photos."[ref]Jerilyn Jordan. "Michigan-startup launches DateAha! — a Yelp-like online dating extension". Detroit Metro Times, 2018-11-08. Accessed 2018-11-11.[/ref] --Tepples (talk) 05:54, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Another 'plasty revisited the concept as Yelp First Date. See ohleander's entry in "15 Game-Changers That Would Save Modern Dating". --Tepples (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If anything, it'd cause opportunities for autistic people to take a nosedive. --Tepples (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Why geniuses don't have jobs
Just brain-dumping a CBS News article --Eighty5cacao (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

 Link dump
Brain dump - http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things-everyone-gets-wrong-about-introverts/ --Eighty5cacao (talk) 20:14, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Huffington Post on a related topic --Eighty5cacao (talk) 02:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to show that I'm paying attention... (No comment. This article is mostly common sense that I already "know" but have trouble applying reliably.) --Eighty5cacao (talk) 18:37, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Bikeshed
One "problem" with Aspies is that they don't have a good understanding how broadly NTs define bikeshedding and how strongly they look down upon it ... --Eighty5cacao (talk) 06:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
 * More specifically, Aspies often have trouble accomplishing anything while editing wikis because (some) NTs consider bikeshedding such a serious offense as to justify reversion, whereas Aspies understand (believe?) that reverting just adds fuel to the fire. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 18:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * A limit on arguing about rules is itself an unwritten rule.[ref]Chris Bucholz. "5 Crucial Rules of Every Game (Not Found in the Rulebook)". Cracked, 2014-03-11. Accessed 2014-03-16.[/ref] --Tepples (talk) 16 March 2014
 * I was talking mostly about bikeshedding in the main namespace (regarding article content). How does "arguing about rules" apply to that? --Eighty5cacao (talk) 07:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a widespread perception that getting an edit to a Wikipedia article to stick depends on how well you can play the rules lawyer. The most commonly gamed rules that I've seen are what counts as a reliable source and what counts as original synthesis. Whether this arguing is done in edit summaries attached to reverts or on a talk page doesn't matter much. It's still argument over what edits are allowable per the rules, and the big difference is that BRD moves it to talk to avoid the rate-limiting of 3RR. And some self-proclaimed NTs on Slashdot think Aspies control Wikipedia due to Aspies' perceived advantage in attention to detail in rules lawyering. --Tepples (talk) 00:09, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I was also (especially?) referring to minor formatting issues (that is, wikignoming) where no sourcing modifications are needed because no underlying facts are changed. Anyway, I guess this ties into my point that many Aspies prefer BDRD and get surprised when other users don't do that. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

To me it's not BRD vs. BDRD. It's that a lot of self-proclaimed NTs on Slashdot believe that only Aspies have the patience even for BRD. But I do tend toward BDRD in cases where the B blanks text, assuming the editor intended it as the R for a days- or months-old B. And I find that style corrections stick more easily if the edit summary cites the applicable MOS page. --Tepples (talk) 14:56, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I admit I was oversimplifying by bring up BDRD. I was referring generally to areas of content where no established policy or guideline (MOS or otherwise) gives clear guidance. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps NT editors dislike bikeshedding because it often foreshadows instruction creep, increasing the cognitive load of not-yet-written rules that editors think will need to follow in order to not annoy other editors. I've seen it happen on Wikipedia. --Tepples (talk) 20:02, 23 March 2014 (UTC) (fixed 23:41, 24 March 2014 (UTC))

Aspies might even sometimes expect DBRD or DBDRD, but discussing first violates the definition of boldness. --Eighty5cacao (talk) 05:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)